The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

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The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Smoothcall »

As unbalanced and difficult and downright crazy my ex-girlfriend was at times, she often came out with some real bits of wisdom. One of them was, in talking about herself:

"I am all the love I've ever been searching for."

I've been thinking about this and some related ideas the last couple of days.

Why you attract and are attracted to crazy women.

According to a lot of what I've been reading lately, if you are a man and you didn't get the kind of love and nurturing you should have as a child, you often end up in relationships with women who have a personality disorder like borderline personality disorder ("BPD") or a woman who has a bunch of the symptoms. These women are often very attractive. They have the same type of damage from childhood that we do. They are desperately seeking validation from men, just like you are seeking validation from women.

These women have learned that they can get their validation from men by using their looks, charm, and sexuality. They learn how to find men who need to be built up, and they pour on the sex, love, and validation. They tell the man how brilliant he is, they want sex all the time, that he is best lover ever, and all kinds of stuff that makes the man feel great.

We also get validation from another source with these women. They often need to be rescued from some shit in their lives. When we rescue them, that validates us. It makes us feel worthwhile and like we have some meaning to our lives. And the women feel validated because they see that they are worthy of somebody rescuing them.

Therefore, we are attracted to this type of woman because of our extreme need for love, validation, and approval. We tend to fall especially hard for the BPD type because in the beginning of the relationship, they are pouring on the approval and validation in order to hook us in. This isn't calculated; it's a survival mechanism. And don't be so quick to be judgmental about her behavior, because you are likely promising to always love her and take care of her, in order to hook her. These are just two sides of the same dysfunctional coin. Her face is on one side, but yours is on the other.

We are flying high and happy when the woman is heaping on the love and affection. It makes us feel as if life is worthwhile and that we are good human beings.

The perfect couple: She validates him, he validates her back in return. It is the perfect co-dependent relationship--at least at first.

By the way, even if we end up with a woman who is more or less emotionally healthy, we still want validation and approval from the woman, and we subconsciously try to get it--which makes us seem needy--but that's a different dynamic than what I am talking about here.

You have another problem that makes it nearly impossible for you to have a successful relationship with these types of women.

If you had a strong enough frame, you might be able to live with this type of woman and even enjoy it--it might be good for her too and provide her healing. (But I highly suggest you don't reproduce with her--she will start using your kid to validate herself and the kid will not get the kind of mother love it needs--and guess what? The cycle repeats).

But don't kid yourself, 90% of us don't have what it takes to handle this type of woman. (I can already hear the wheels spinning in some of your brains: Yeah, but I am special, my inner game is tight, I can handle this, and I will be a hero to her. Pause for a moment and realize that you are already pandering to your intense need for validation).

We can't handle this type of woman because the intense need some of us men have for validation and approval makes it almost impossible for us to establish reasonable boundaries in our relationships.

For example, say you like to play small-stakes poker with your buddies a couple of times a month. Not unreasonable, in my opinion. But if your playing poker makes you fear that your woman will take away her approval, love, and validation because she doesn't like you spending time away from her, you are likely to eventually give up the poker game.

Or maybe she is highly critical of some habit you have, like tapping your foot. Over time, she gets more and more upset with your foot-tapping and starts to criticize your character, your earning ability, your intelligence, and your worth as a human being because you tap your foot (believe me, I've had it happen). She might even smack you when you are doing it. And instead of kicking her ass out of your life, you put up with this shit, and maybe even try to change it. Why? Because you are afraid to lose her approval.

Or maybe she picks a fight with your family at family gatherings and then when you are in private, she heaps abuse on you for not backing her up during the argument.

Or maybe you like to eat pizza for breakfast, like to listen to rock and roll in the shower, like to sleep with the window open, like to watch football on Sunday morning, prefer to go on road trips instead of flying, like old movies and not new ones, have a beer with your pizza, eat red meat every once in awhile, or whatever the hell you like to do--a lot of stuff that is really no big deal, but just kind of the way you do things in your life--and you start to change these behaviors because you are afraid of your woman's disapproval. You are afraid that she will stop validating you, so you stop doing them.

You are afraid of confrontation, because you are afraid she will leave you if you resist her, so you change. When you draw a line, she packs up her stuff and tries to leave or does leave for a night or two (if you have a sense of humor like me, you chuckle at the irony of this woman packing stuff you bought her into your suitcase and using one of your cars to drive out of your life).

At any rate, you love her and get tired of drama, so you change, thinking that she will be happy after you fix this one little problem she brought up. You convince yourself that it is "compromise" and you need to compromise in order to be in a relationship. Eventually you discover that she will never be happy no matter how much you change.

Trying to fill her up with love is liking trying to fill up a bucket with a hole in it. When you realize this, hopefully sooner than later, it's time to follow David Deida's advice in the chapter of his book Way of the Superior Man, "Stay With Her Intensity To a Point":
A superior man penetrates her mood with imperturbable love and unwavering consciousness. If she still refuses to live more fully in love, after a time, he lets her go.


The trap of Superior Man is that you want to be superior, because being "superior" validates you. You get to feel special by putting up with your woman's shit. So you stay with a woman whose moods you can't penetrate. Deida also says that if you can't penetrate her moods in five minutes, you are doing something wrong. Take a hint: If you are spending hours, day after day after day, trying to bring this woman into a loving place--you bit off more than you can chew. Let her go.

By the way, you are often really confused about this, because you are pretty happy with her when she isn't on one of her tirades. You don't want her to change at all--you just want her to be happy. Because when she is happy, she makes you feel like you own the world.

After awhile as the dynamic continues, because you get tired of arguing with her and because you are hoping she will give you a crumb of the validation she used to give you by the dump-truck full, you give in on almost everything she asks. You can't set a boundary to save your life, because you are afraid you will lose even the small amounts of approval and validation she still gives you. And because you are afraid of her disapproval.

But what happens when you fail to set boundaries is that you start to lose your sense of identity, bit by bit (I think the professionals call it "engulfment"). And eventually, you start to feel as if you do not know what you like and what you don't like.

You get very very tired of the conflict with the woman about what we want to do and don't want to do. You get very tired of pretending to be somebody you aren't and of repressing your real desires. You can spend a weekend with your woman and go back to work on Monday feeling as if somebody just spend two days beating the shit out of you.

Of course, this eventually gets to be something that no human being can take. So, the typical reactions us men are likely to have include things like:
  • 1. Passive aggressive behavior like working late and finding excuses to not spend time with her;

    2. Exploding into an angry tantrum and telling her how horrible she is for mistreating you (some people call them "victim pukes"--I love that term);

    3. Becoming physically violent with her, even if you have never been a violent person;

    4. Withdrawing from her sexually, and cheating on her or using a lot of internet porn; or

    5. Suddenly and almost out of the blue ending the relationship.
Eventually, you settle for living a life that is very unhappy OR you end the relationship in an emotional and often financial mess.

Do not fool yourself into thinking that finding the "right woman" will help you

You might think that finding the "right woman" will help you. You might think that a relationship with a non-crazy and well-adjusted woman will help you--it will NOT.

First, in the needy state you are in, you will not be attracted to this type of woman (and she won't be attracted to you, either). You won't get the thrills and chemistry and validation that you so desperately need. You might not even be able to get an erection with her. You will end up resenting her and treating her poorly because you feel she isn't meeting your needs. You have a little bit different dynamic, but it still doesn't make you happy. You probably will end up cheating on her or finding excuses to not spend time with her.

Second, you will unconsciously do everything you can to create the same validation dynamic with this "right woman". A relationship that doesn't include the dynamic will feel wrong and strange to you--so, you will try to create something that feels "right", according to your twisted sense of what is right. This will either start to unhinge her and make her feel insecure, and you will be successful in creating the same dynamic again OR she will get tired of your passive aggressive manipulation and leave your ass.

Or third, she may just stick around and take advantage of the situation. You can't blame somebody for wiping her feet on a doormat; that's what it's there for. You will be working your ass off, paying for her car, taking her on vacations, buying her fake tits, and she will fucking the personal trainer while you're at work. You made yourself a doormat--you are getting what you deserve.

There is only one real solution to this

The only solution I can think of to our little problem is to learn to be self-validating. Or as my ex girlfriend said, realize that you are the love you have always been looking for.

This is essentially what you learn about yourself in the early stages of childhood development, if you are the rare person who had a mother who knew how to give you love and nurturing without her own issues getting in the way.

It is my conclusion that we will never be happy or content until we can learn to give ourselves some of the basic validation of our own "Beingness" (I had to borrow one of those funky new-age terms here, because I couldn't think of anything else).

In other words, we stop needing validation from women (or father figures or mother figures or God or whatever your thing is) because we know that we are human beings with the full rights and privileges of that title, without having to prove a damn thing to anybody, without getting validation and approval from a woman or anybody else.

If you know without a doubt that your Beingness is secure, you are able to set healthy boundaries, because you are not afraid to lose your woman's validation--her validation of you is irrelevant because you have enough already. You will have a good sense of when you should draw a line and say "no", when you should insist on her changing her behavior, when you should compromise or change your behavior, and when you should just leave the relationship.

When you set appropriate boundaries, then you won't start to feel like you are losing your identity. You won't act in passive-aggressive ways to avoid spending time with your woman. You will be direct about what you are doing and why you are doing it. And you will get more enjoyment out of the time you do spend with her.

But you can't set the appropriate boundaries until you learn to find all the love and self-validation inside YOU.

Okay, this sounds like a good plan to me.

Does anybody know where I can buy some of that self-validation?

Because it sounds very desirable.

I am going to find a source and when I do, I will report back to you all.

Added On 11/26/2010

Okay, something that I've been thinking about, is another type of validation, in addition to self-validation, that we need in relationships.

I think it is healthy to require that the woman validate that she is in the relationship with us and that she is dedicated to moving it along and building it into something better. I need to think about this a little bit more.
Last edited by Smoothcall on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by KingOfAces »

wow. another awesome post smooth. sounds like you've really been digging into the psychology of things lately. really enjoyed reading your posts lately and thankful for the wisdom that you share. looking forward to more updates...
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Zebulon »

Smoothcall,

Why are you searching for self-validation? To validate means to confirm something, how come you need to confirm things with yourself or are seeking to do this?

I did a lot of self-validation throughout my life; I just ended up validating myself for doing the wrong thing. Actually, self-validation in my opinion means you are not confident in what you are doing, so you mask it by making up a reason WHY you are doing that action and that makes it okay (with some twisted logic).

So I do not believe you are searching for the ability to self-validate. Granted you are much more experienced than me but I came across the exact same thing you mentioned above. I could be wrong but here's my two cents:

You shouldn't need to be validated at all, if you are sure of yourself (not arrogant but logically confident in your actions) you know you are doing the right thing so no validation is required. You know its right and it agrees with who you are on all levels.

You know you're doing the right thing despite zero feedback from the world around you or even yourself. The wrong choice can still be made but you made that choice to the best of your ability. So if you made a wrong choice you can now recognize it as a mistake and learn from it (you must recognize that it was YOU that made that choice, not the world around you). If you validated yourself (or were validated from a third party) on your incorrect decision you probably didn't accept full responsibility that you were the one that made that mistake (even if it's an extremely small one). In turn you don't really recognize it as YOUR mistake so you will have much difficulty learning from the wrong choice and will probably make that wrong choice again in the future (creating a repeating pattern).

The way I dealt with this is I found out what my guiding principles were. Basically these are what I stood for, what my identity is, etc. (there's lots, still working on mine). Whenever something comes up I believe in my principles and use those as guidelines to make my decision, rather than making my decision and waiting to see if it gets validated or not (can be in the form of success, from a partner, etc.).

So now, whenever life throws a curve ball, I just deal with it and move on. I still weigh the pros and cons of each decision but I don't worry about what the world will think about the decision I've made. I made that decision to the best of my ability and that's good enough for me. I have enough confidence in myself now that the decision I've made is the right one because it stuck to my basic principles, it doesn't need to be confirmed. It was really weird for me to realize but a lot of "right" decisions in life never get validated, but they were still made.

Anyways Smoothcall, hope this provides some insight!
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Smoothcall »

Zebulon wrote:Smoothcall,

Why are you searching for self-validation? To validate means to confirm something, how come you need to confirm things with yourself or are seeking to do this?

I did a lot of self-validation throughout my life; I just ended up validating myself for doing the wrong thing. Actually, self-validation in my opinion means you are not confident in what you are doing, so you mask it by making up a reason WHY you are doing that action and that makes it okay (with some twisted logic).

***
I think you are misunderstanding. Validating yourself doesn't mean you do anything. It means that you are happy without getting approval from an external source. It
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Smoothcall »

Zeb,

I went and did a little research on the meaning of "validation".

Sometimes it is used to mean "the process of testing out construing." That is, we test our understanding of how social functions work, behaving a certain way and seeing the type of result we get. This validates our understanding or invalidates our understanding. http://www.pcp-net.org/encyclopaedia/validation.html After we go through this process, we may change our behaviors, based on whether we were validated or not.

That is not what I mean, but I think that maybe you are reading it that way. And when I find a better word to use, I will go back and edit the post to use that word.
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Smoothcall »

Bayrage,

In my opinion, if you have a strong enough frame, you can be in a relationship with a complete psycho.

But you are setting yourself up for long term unhappiness as long as you need validation, as opposed to merely having fun with the validation the woman gives you. I think a lot of us can't tell the difference between needing it and having fun with it.

Even if you find the new "right" girl, my experience and research shows that you will turn her into the wrong girl if you don't have an adequate ability to self-regulate your own self-esteem (to avoid the confusion that Zebulon had, consider that I am using "self-regulate your own self-esteem" and "self-validate" interchangeably).

Keep in mind that Sane and Crazy are not like a binary system. Mental health is a continuum. Every sane woman has some degree of crazy.

That said, it's helpful to talk about women as if they are "sane" or "crazy" for right now. Every sane woman and every crazy woman will push you and test your boundaries. If you don't have reasonable boundaries and you cave in, it will anger and frustrate even a sane woman. By the way, the other extreme of not being able to set boundaries is "not putting up with any shit."

You can never have a relationship if you refuse to put up with at least a little shit. Because every so often, the sane woman will continue to push the man to see if she is with a real man or with a pussy-man--this is a very sane thing to do if you are a woman seeking to have children. If you have a strong frame and a good ability to self-validate, a few shit-tests every so often won't bother you too much, you will deal with them quickly, and you will re-assert your boundaries. This makes a woman with the ability to self-validate feel good.

The sane woman might experience emotional problems because of being with a pussy-man. But I think her reaction to the situation is different from the crazy woman's reaction. She doesn't blame all her problems on the man. She sees her own part in the dynamic. She doesn't break up with him every two days.

I think the biggest differences are that the sane woman is able to experience empathy, can self-validate and self-soothe, and doesn't engage in splitting behavior. "Splitting" is like seeing things in black and white only (YES, like saying that a woman is either crazy or sane--ha ha). A person who sees the world through a splitting viewpoint sees things as either good or bad. You know you are with a woman who engages in splitting when she can tell you that you are the most perfect man in the world to her and then go to calling you a piece of shit--all within a day or two. Or sometimes even just a few minutes.

Building a good lifestyle and keeping busy are good, but have only limited value if you don't have the ability to self-validate. The same goes for having multiple girls. There comes a time for most of us when we fall so hard in love that we do not want multiple girls. You might find that having multiple girls gets in the way of intimacy and connection.

Also, there may come a time when you can't fill your schedule with activities because you have a wife and three kids who need love and attention. You have an infant who keeps you and the woman up all night crying. If you can't self-validate without filling up your schedule with cool stuff, you are doomed to be unhappy. You will take your unhappiness out on your family. Even if you don't abuse them, you will try to stay away from them as much as possible.

But I think what you are trying to say is that whatever you do with your life and in your relationships, do not give up the practices that allow you to continue to self-validate. I agree with that 100%.

If meditating every day is part of what you need to support your ability to self-validate, do not give it up for a woman. If going to the gym is part of that, do not give it up for a woman. If spending time with male friends is helpful, then do not give it up. A reasonably sane woman will respect you for sticking to these things, as long as you aren't fucking some other woman behind her back. She might decide that you don't have enough time for her and leave you, but she will respect you--she will understand that it doesn't make you a bad boyfriend or husband.

A crazy woman will stay with you, but punish you by withholding sex, threatening to leave you (but not really meaning it), being in a bad mood, withdrawing emotionally, criticizing you, blaming you for her bad feelings, and so forth.

One of the huge problems for some of us is that we don't realize what we are doing. We happily give up our healthy self-validation practices in exchange for validation from the woman. It's tempting--it's a hell of a lot easier to listen to a woman tell you how much she likes sucking your cock than it is to go for a three mile run. But if you are the type of man who is emotionally damaged from childhood, you cannot afford to give up these practices and you should be careful to make sure that you aren't doing this in exchange for additional validation from a woman.
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Shotz »

Smoothcall, this post and your other one has helped me out more than you'll ever know. After a pretty intense conversation with mother the othernight, I've realized I've been in this insecure, not feeling loved, not feeling validated pattern since I was 1 years old when they split. I've had to deal with some tough emotions that I've kept bottled in for years.

One of the quotes from your post that really stands out is, the one about staying in the abusive relationship and being an emotional and/or financial mess. Fortunately, I made the right chocie by leaving but I was an emotional wreck at the time. It's been one of the most difficult time periods of my life but I've also grown more than I ever have before. Thanks again and keep up the great posts.
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Captain Awesome »

SmoothCall, for my money, you're about the most intelligent and self-aware guy I've met in the community, and for that I treasure your posts and friendship. Reading over this post and your other one on BPD was like reading a bizarro version of my history with women. The names and faces changed, but the patterns were all there. It's given me a lot to think about.
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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Guilty Pleasure »

These words need to be engraved into EVERY MANS MIND. This is solid bro..!!



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Re: The Twisted Dynamic of a PUA in a Relationship

Post by Smoothcall »

I am bumping this because I read a recent post by Lego and thought it was relevant. I wrote this about a month after I dumped my girlfriend at the time.

Three years later, I am happily married and deeply in love with Mrs. Smoothcall. This relationship is drama free and seems to get better all the time.
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