9mm ammo?

[Whiz Kid]

isnt shock value the same as temporary wound cavity?

Not in my opinion.

A temporary wound cavity is the physical damage a bullet traveling through a object causes.
Shock would be the auxiliary affects of said physical damage.

Example; A hollow point travels through a human, mushrooming and travels through the right lung. At exit it takes out two ribs and a kidney. That is the temporary wound damage.
Shock effects are other organs being affected by the bullet without being physically in contact with the bullet or the hydraulics of it. Example, the kinetic energy collapsing the left lung or concussing the brain.

This is without discussing the benefits of that kinetic energy physically slamming a human to the ground. Hell of a lot easier to kill a man when he's on his back.

which actually what I always read was a big deal, the AR class I took with Giles Stock- who is a bullet expert and has done more ballistic gelatin testing than anyone I have ever heard of, was saying that really doesnt matter with handguns

I find that extraordinary hard to believe, which is surprising since the man has 20 years of experience. Still, everyman has his faults and prejudices. I haven't done any gelatin testing, nor have I ever seen any gelatin testing done.

I do know the effects of hollow points vrs FMJ in a combat situation and I'll take my round over a FMJ any day of the week, rifle or side-arm.


The whole point come down to where you place that bullet. Always is and always will be.

And this

[Bravo]

Example; A hollow point travels through a human, mushrooming and travels through the right lung. At exit it takes out two ribs and a kidney. That is the temporary wound damage.

So wouldn't that be the permanent wound cavity?

The the shockwave that the round causes, the ripple effect that it does inside, that is temporary because then the meat goes back in place.

[Bravo]

Which every thing I have heard/read was that temp wound cavity matters.


Then talking to Giles, he said on handguns it really doesn't matter- on rifles it does (watch the vid)


So he recommended a heavy bullet so it penetrates deeper, hopefully hitting something more important.

This is without discussing the benefits of that kinetic energy physically slamming a human to the ground. Hell of a lot easier to kill a man when he's on his back.

Also remember, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So the energy the gun pushes back on you, is how hard the handgun bullet is going to hit them.

A vest stops it and all the energy is absorbed. Usually resulting in deep bruising, and heard it use to be able to break a rib.

Shotguns kick hard, but the BG doesn't get thrown thru the air.




-and this is why I said you opened a can of worms ice

[Bravo]

Description from a gelatin vid




SA80 L86A1 Light Support Weapon
5.56x45mm NATO
10% ballistic gelatine block

The study of terminal ballistics looks at the relative performance of different types of weapon and ammunition against different targets.

This video shows the effect of the fired round on a 10% gelatine block.

A mixture of 10% ordnance gelatine and 90% water is the standard for scientific testing as it is closest to the consistency of human muscle tissue. This is chilled into a firm jelly-like block so that consistent measurements can be taken of the 'wound track'. There are three main considerations:

1. Permanent cavity -- this is the classical 'gunshot wound', a simple track or cavity formed by the crushing passage of the bullet. It's also an opportunity to recover the bullet to determine the extent to which it's deformed and/or fragmented, which will tend to increase the size of the track and the severity of a real wound.

2. Temporary cavity -- this is the stretching effect seen in the clips. You can see how the cavity collapses back down behind the bullet. Whether this cavity contributes to the severity of a wound depends upon the bullet's velocity, and where it strikes. Pistol ammunition (also used in sub-machine guns) is not capable of generating a significant temporary cavity.

3. Penetration -- law enforcement in particular require a minimum penetration depth to ensure that their targets are incapacitated. The American FBI specify 12 inches (30cm) of penetration to account for different angles, though more than this is considered dangerous as the bullet might, for example, continue on its path and harm a bystander. The blocks used in our clips are 40x32cm in size.

The 5.56mm round was invented for the Armalite AR15 that later became the U.S. military's M16 series of weapons, and is now the NATO standard intermediate round. Like the Russian 5.45x39mm it is intended for use in assault rifles as a compromise between range, power, accuracy, recoil and weight of ammunition.

The small and lightweight 5.56 bullet can punch above its proverbial weight when it yaws (tumbles) early on in the wound track, increasing the size of the permanent wound cavity (the track that remains after the gel stops moving).

Due to its relatively high velocity, it also produces a very large secondary cavity, visible here as the flinging aside of the gel leading to rapid expansion and then contraction of the cavity. Depending upon variable factors, this can greatly add to the round's wounding potential.

[Bravo]

just got these off the Gunsite Facebook feed


http://ramworks.net/blog/the-truth-about-the-9mm/


basically saying 9mm is the best round (this guy thinks like me)

[James Bond]

Totally agree on the hollow point selection. Massive destruction. The deer and coyotes I shoot look look pretty bad after...
But for a large ammo purchase it could be cost prohibitive.

But like Bravo said. It depends where you hit. Even with the best bullet, if you hit something non critical, like say the gut, the target may just get away from adrenalin alone. I've seen it happen even 5 minutes later with two bullets and massive gut wounds visible. Sure it died. But a long ways off from me...

Heart, or head shot is a different story. Quicker incapacitation.


For me what matters most is how accurate the ammo is in MY gun. Try it out.
I dislike heaver bullets just because of the extra recoil. They still kill though. Shot placement counts the most. One good hit is better that two bad ones.
In a stressful situation lots of teams go for two shots to the chest and one to the head from what I understand. Bravo may have some good advise on this.

[James Bond]

Example; A hollow point travels through a human, mushrooming and travels through the right lung. At exit it takes out two ribs and a kidney. That is the temporary wound damage.

So wouldn't that be the permanent wound cavity?

The the shockwave that the round causes, the ripple effect that it does inside, that is temporary because then the meat goes back in place.

From my experience cutting up deer after being shot, the ripple effect tears up all the muscle, bone cartilage etc. It goes back, but it's completely useless jello.